Dave 00:08 Hi, welcome to another episode of our podcast. I'm Dave.
Beau 00:12 And I'm Beau.
Dave 00:14 And we have another special guest with us this week. Jenna Quindica, how are you?
Jenna 00:19 Hi. How's it going?
Dave 00:21 Very good, thanks. Do you wanna tell listeners a little bit about yourself? Give a little bit of an introduction?
Jenna 00:26 Yeah. So, I'm a software engineer at a small, nine-person startup based in the San Francisco Bay Area. I'm also a mental health advocate. And, fun fact, I'm born and raised in Hawaii.
Dave 00:39 Very nice. I believe you've recently met Beau at conferences. Is that right, Beau?
Beau 00:47 Yeah, I think sometime last year, just before Laracon US. We found each other on Twitter. I think the main thing was that we both have firstname.io.
Jenna 00:57 That's right!
Beau 01:01 Yeah, so that was kinda where we started. We got to hang out a little bit at Laracon. It was mostly doing booth duty. Also got to do the DJ thing, which was a lot of fun. That's really where we're really first got to talk a little bit about what you're doing at your startup.
Beau 01:17 Yeah, but since then we also saw each other at Symfony live in San Francisco last year. Another person within our circle, Kevin Boyd, was there as well, so you got to meet Kevin. Kevin is helping out on the Sculpin project, which Dave is involved in. Actually, Kevin's actually been a recent guest on our podcast as well. He does a lot of work with Silex and it's kind of where Dave and I met each other, was doing a lot of Silex work. Kevin was there. A lot of fun. Kevin is doing some Symfony stuff, going back to the Bay area every once in a while.
Beau 01:58 I used to live there. I was a [inaudible 00:02:02]. Didn't go any PHP. But, since then, there's been a lot of Symfony things going on back there. I haven't really gotten the sense, there's never really been a lot of PHP in the Bay Area. Is that an accurate assumption?
Jenna 02:14 Yeah, unfortunately. I wish there were more events. Whenever you were at Symfony Live, I found out that there were several PHP developers who live in San Francisco. I've been living here for about a year and a half now, and I haven't come across a PHP meetup. Lots of front-end meetups, lots of backend meetups, machine learning meetups, but unfortunately no PHP. And Slack is actually down the street from me, and their backend is all in PHP. So, they must be too small or too busy to be putting on PHP meetups.
Beau 02:50 Yeah. Well, I know that we have a pretty active PHP community here in Madison. Actually, the local meetup here is actually started through a conference. It's Madison PHP Conference. It's been on like four or five years now, I can't remember. But yeah, I know what it's like to live in places where there's no PHP community, or there isn't a community around whatever language you're in. And, it's really easy to feel like you're alone, and nobody else is doing what you're doing in most cases. I don't imagine you have a big community by you Dave?
Dave 03:26 No. The nearest is Leeds PHP, about an hour by train, and then 10, 15 minute walk. It's just far enough that it's kind of a pain for me to get. I think the meetups usually start by 6:30, so I'd have to leave straight across the kids tea time, and it's just a little bit too much of an effort for me. There is a local my group, but it's sort of language agnostic. It's for all developers if you like. And, from what I've seen, there tends to be a slight slant towards Microsoft technologies, which I don't mind seeing. But, I'm also not all that into it, so it sometimes is a little bit irrelevant to me.
Beau 04:12 Yeah. [inaudible 00:04:13]. We were listening to one of our first episodes recently. Our listeners probably don't know this yet, but I got a new house, and we just moved. So, we've been doing a lot of painting and kind of DIY stuff. Little closer to what Dave's been talking about over the years. Whether it be painting or fixing up doors that don't close, whatever, that sort of thing. But, one of the things that we did was play music, then that got boring. So, then we started to listen to old podcasts.
Beau 04:41 We listened to the first episode of That Podcast again, which was a lot of fun. But, in that episode I was talking about when I lived in South Dakota, that I think I was five hours away from the nearest PHP developer, and I didn't even know them at the time. So, that was pretty isolated. I imagine there's a lot of people like that, that don't really know there's a community, or don't even have a community. So, being able to go to conferences is pretty nice, but not everybody knows about those, or really has that interest in going.
Beau 05:13 What sort of got you going to conferences?
Jenna 05:17 Me?
Beau 05:17 Yeah, sorry.
Jenna 05:19 Well, I love the energy of the people that are at conferences. The whole reason I go is to just get my energy refilled. I feed of people's energy.
Beau 05:35 Vampire.
Jenna 05:35 Yeah. I just really love meeting new people and just being around people. But, the talks are great too, usually. I think ...
Beau 05:49 What was your first conference? Why did you go to one? I guess what I was getting at is, not everybody goes to them, but not always because of a reason. They just either don't have the opportunity, they've never heard about it, they didn't know that these sorts of things happen. So, I'm curious what your first conference was. What spurred you into going, and that sort of thing.
Jenna 06:13 I don't remember what my first conference was. I can't remember if the conference I'm thinking about is my first conference or not. So, I was working in upstate New York, working for a startup. I was remotely working. Everyone else on the team was remote. So, very lonely, like you said. I didn't know any other PHP developers. I got a Facebook add for a design conference.
Jenna 06:38 Design is just tangentially interesting to me. And, it was just gonna be a bunch of designers, and they were gonna talk about design thinking and different methodologies. And, I was like, "Oh, that's cool." And, I basically begged my manager to let me go, and he said that they would pay for my ticket, as long as I wore our swag and passed out business cards. And yeah, I went to [Forge 00:07:05] Conf in Philadelphia in 2015, 2014? It's been a while.
Beau 07:05 What is Forge Conf?
Jenna 07:15 So, it's a design conference. Everyone talks about design thinking, hierarchal design, how design empowered their business, user experience, very broadly. I don't quite remember what the specific talks were like. I remember the people I met, not the talks I went to.
Dave 07:43 Most definitely the best thing about conferences, isn't it?
Jenna 07:48 Yeah.
Beau 07:48 It usually helps if you, well, I found it helps to know somebody there, that you wouldn't be alone. Because, it can be difficult being in, well, at least for me anyways, a little socially awkward in places where I'm not used to either the people, I don't know what to expect, that sort of thing.
Beau 08:12 The first conference that I went to recently was actually Symfony Live San Francisco. And, that was in 2013 or 2012 I think. But, had I not known a couple of people beforehand, I would've been super anxious to be there. So, it was nice. You didn't know anybody else at the conference when you went?
Jenna 08:32 I didn't, and so I made friends with another woman who was there, but actually she had to go home. I think she had a child at home, so she had to go home at 5:00 or at 6:00, before the after party. And so, I remember standing outside with no one to talk to, while being surrounded by people talking to each other. Eventually someone kindly let me into their conversation, and then we went to the after party.
Jenna 09:00 Yeah, I was brave in the sense that I didn't care that I didn't know anyone. I figured I would just meet people. I'm very extroverted, so at conferences it can be a superpower of mine.
Beau 09:15 Something I've hearing, it might've been around for a while, but I've been hearing about the Pac-Man rule. That any sort social function is to, don't fill up the seats. Don't have a circle of people. Make sure that you leave an opening, like a Pac-Man. [crosstalk 00:09:34]. So, leave room for somebody else to walk into the conversation. And, as it fills, keep making it bigger and bigger.
Beau 09:41 Keep making room for someone else to walk in. 'Cause it can be super intimidating if you walk into a conference during lunchtime, and all the seats are taken. How do you try to get into a conversation that's already happening, or sit down with people if there isn't room ...
Jenna 10:00 Yeah, absolutely.
Beau 10:00 ... to actually do that? So, that's one of the things that I've heard more conferences talking about being intentional about those sorts of things which may be super useful, especially for newcomers. [crosstalk 00:10:12]. Who don't have the superpower of being an extrovert.
Dave 10:18 Yeah. And I think, I've probably done quite well in that regard. When I first started going to conferences, I didn't feel like I could approach people very easily. I mean, I haven't been to any for a while. But, when I go to a conference now, I am confident enough in myself that I feel like I belong there, and I guess worthy's not quite the word I'm looking for. I feel confident in that, if I join a conversation, I'd be able to add something to it, or that kind of thing.
Dave 10:52 And, I think just being in a conference room qualifies you enough to be able to be involved in just about any conversation that's going on at the conference. It's hard for a lot of people when they first start going, to make those kinds of moves.
Dave 11:13 Jenna, you've been speaking at conferences as well, 'cause that's a massive opener for getting to know people. Turning up to conference on your own as a speaker is a big difference to turning up to a conference on your own as an attendee, because you kind of instantly get plugged into things. So, what have you been speaking about?
Jenna 11:32 So, I've just started speaking, so only very recently have I been able to call myself a conference speaker, or a mental health advocate. So, I actually speak about my experiences with mental health, and how that's affected me as a software engineer. So, the talk goes into detail about what it was like to be undiagnosed, and be living with a mental illness, not knowing what's going on, and how that affects my work. And then being diagnosed, and then getting treatment, and how getting treated is so much better than not.
Beau 12:12 That's cool. Are you aware of any other groups doing work like that? Have you plugged into OSMI, Open Sourcing Mental Illness, or any other groups like that?
Jenna 12:27 Yeah, so I actually speak through OSMI, Open Sourcing Mental Illness. I'm also familiar with MH Prompt. So, they're another mental health grouping of people speaking about mental illness. So, actually there are non-technical speaking engagements through mental health, through NAMI, the National Alliance for Mental Illness. They have two speaker types. So, there're tons of mental health speakers all over the world now. Yeah, and I've only recently been able to get into this space.
Beau 13:04 That's pretty cool. I feel like that space is pretty important. I know that for me personally, OSMI made a huge impact on my life, and sort of better understanding myself, and sort of the things that I go through. It's helped me deal with a lot of personal situations and business situations differently, than I would before. And I think that that's been a huge help. So, anybody who does that kind of work I'm super appreciative of. So, thank you for that message.
Beau 13:37 It sounds like you have a couple of upcoming talks about it?
Jenna 13:39 I do. So, I just got an email that I'm invited to speak at another event. I haven't opened the email yet, so I don't know which event it is yet. But, I'm gonna be speaking at Anxiety Tech, which is a conference here in San Francisco, on July 18th, at the Palace of Fine Arts. I'll be speaking alongside many other people in the mental health space. Very cool conference. Tickets are on sale now, so go get your tickets.
Jenna 14:08 I'm also speaking at South East PHP in Nashville in August. So, I'm actually gonna be keynoting one of the talks there. Same talk about mental illness. And, lastly I'll be speaking at North East PHP in Boston. I believe that's in September, and I'm very excited. Super excited about telling people all about my darkest moments.
Beau 14:37 Nice. You were just recently at a different conference, isn't it? At [inaudible 00:14:42].
Jenna 14:43 Yeah. So, I was volunteering with OSMI at DockerCon. So, the connection there is kind of a fun story. So, OSMI needed someone to speak, and I hadn't previously spoken at a conference ever about anything. And, Joe at Open Sourcing Mental Illness reached out to me, and he's like, "Hey, you're in San Francisco. Docker is in San Francisco. Would you be open to speaking about mental health at their headquarters?" And I'm like, "Why not? Sure, yay." So, for mental health awareness month of May, I spoke at DockerCon about my mental illness.
Jenna 15:22 So then DockerCon was the next month in June, like a week ago, and I was just volunteering, running a booth at the community corner, telling people about mental health and why they should talk about it, and how to make spaces more inclusive to people with mental illness.
Beau 15:39 Nice. So, they reached out to you? Had you talked with OSMI before?
Jenna 15:46 Yeah. I had been working in the Slack for a couple of months.
Beau 15:50 Cool, okay. I didn't know they had a Slack actually. Is it a volunteer Slack, or did you sign up for something?
Jenna 15:57 It's a volunteer Slack.
Beau 15:58 Okay, 'cause Beth and I both have talked about wanting to do more with OSMI somehow. Beck's not super technical, she doesn't have a technical job like I do, but she appreciates it as much as I do. Because, it helps her to help me. It's just a really good resource. There've been things that we've been wanting to try and help with more than just buying the tshirts, which we do pretty frequently, have OSMI tshirts. She just got me an OSMI hoodie. We like to support the cause however we can, but doing something more proactive is the thing that we're interested in doing.
Jenna 16:36 Yeah. We always need help with the website, with the blog, content editing. Also just providing support for people. We have a safe space channel in our Slack. It's great to have that space. Also, OSMI has a forum, a Discourse forum, where they allow people to post about their mental illnesses, and everyone sort of responds and commiserates. It's basically a support group, but online. It used to be called Devpressed I believe, like depressed, but Devpressed. So, forums.osmihelp.org.
Beau 17:21 Wow, okay.
Dave 17:24 You said there's a safe space channel for people. I do have some experience with this kind of thing, not as much as Beau. So, when you say safe space channel, what do you mean by safe space channel?
Jenna 17:37 Oh, good question. So, it's a space where people can talk about anything as it relates to mental illness. So, it's supposed to be for the difficult things that people don't want to talk about in normal situations.
Dave 17:57 So, it's kind of like a specific place. The whole purpose of that place is to talk about those things, and it's like an enabler in that regard.
Jenna 18:01 Yeah. So, people will post about very difficult situations that they're dealing with. And just to get support, not necessarily to get advice or anything like that. It's just to put it out there and get acknowledgement that they're going through something difficult.
Beau 18:16 Yeah. Those sorts of things can be super helpful. I think this talk that I'd seen, I think I saw his original Open Sourcing Mental Illness talk, maybe three or four times. And just hearing some of his troubles, I could relate to them so much. And so, sometimes it just helps just to say the things, even if you don't get anything back from them. Just being able to say them and get them out. At least for me, I know that can be super helpful. So, I think that's part of it. But, again, I didn't realize that there were actually forums on the site.
Beau 18:57 I've been aware of OSMI, but I haven't actually followed closely enough to realize there's a Slack channel, forums. This is all really good for me to know now. So, thanks for raising awareness on that.
Dave 19:11 Yeah. I've seen a few things. I haven't actually added this to the Read Me or announced or anything, but at some point me and Robert [Dasick 00:19:22], who is a commentator on [Mockery 00:19:25], decided OSMI would be our charity of choice for all the projects. Basically, we haven't done anything other than donate money ourselves. But, the point was that we were gonna put something in the Read Me. So, Rather than go to [Paytron 00:19:44] and give us money, or go to our Amazon Wish List and buy us something, we were gonna suggest people make donations to OSMI. And that started out because Robert got paid for an article in one of the PHP magazines. What's the magazine?
Beau 20:00 PHP Architect.
Dave 20:02 PHP Architect, yeah. Strangely enough, I think he's in Serbia. He got paid through PayPal. And because of Serbian laws and weird stuff, he can't actually get that money out of PayPal. So, he was kind of trying to give it away to people. He asked if I wanted it, if I had something on Wish List. I was like, "No, but don't get me anything anyway. I don't [inaudible 00:20:24]." So, from there we went and made donations to OSMI.
Dave 20:33 Having not sort of looked at the project for some time, I went and had a good look around, to make sure it was something that ... I had it in my mind that it was something I'd like to support, but when you're gonna make a decision like that, have a good look around. So yeah, I had a good look around, and it's quite incredible really how big it's got, and the way it looks. It looks really great. It's impressive.
Beau 20:53 Yeah. In terms of being able to give money to OSMI, I guess the only thing that I've done is, I enabled OSMI for Amazon Smile. It doesn't change your pricing apparently somehow, but they put some portion of what you're buying for a charity of your choice. I guess I have done that. I found that OSMI was listed on there, so I've been able to help out in that way, which is kinda nice.
Jenna 21:28 That's great. One of my favorite things about OSMI is that, we have people without lived experiences with mental health speaking about mental health, which is just really wonderful. Talk about allies. That's a great thing. Anyone can be an ally to someone with mental health. I think the statistic in America is that 20% of American adults will have mental illness some time in their life. One in five people. So, that's a lot of people, and they all need support.
Dave 22:02 Yeah. I mean, I'm probably one of the lucky ones who's got away with it so far in life. But, my wife suffered with depression, and I'm so much more sympathetic and empathetic, or in touch with those kind of things, since my wife's been through those kinds of things. I haven't really done a whole lot for the people, but having been there for my wife, I feel like I could at least help out in some way. I just haven't really gotten round to doing anything. It's a bit hard for me to. I don't really feel qualified to help. But then, even just listening to people I guess is a great way to start.
Jenna 22:45 Recently I actually heard about a startup here in San Francisco doing something called peer therapy. So, they're normal people not medically trained, but trained in a program kind of way in mental health. And so, they offer this online service, on demand, it's peer therapy. So, you can book at 45 minute session, and you can get help right then and there, which is really cool. It's started by a Stanford psychologist and ex-Uber engineer. They're still very small, but the app is really cool. It's called Basis. So, the website is mybasis.com.
Jenna 23:30 I don't have a quote for you, but the peer therapists are really good. And so, my point is that, there're people that are not medically trained, but they are trained in active listening, and really helping others make a plan, or get some help. Or, make a plan to get help is what I mean.
Beau 23:53 Yeah. One of the things that I picked up from it, was this whole idea of it being a stigma and people not talking about it. And, one of the things that I guess now realize is getting harder for me, is to realize that stigma is still there, is still real. I love that it's been talked about so much now.
Beau 24:17 But, at the same time, it kind of puts me in this little bubble, where it's like a bubble of understanding. Where everybody knows that I'm going through something, or that everybody should be able to understand that this person is having trouble with something, and it's not their fault. It's not that they're doing this. They have some sort of mental health issue. But, not everybody does understand that. So, it's cool that there are tools that people can have, that people are actively going through [inaudible 00:24:48] lives better, which is awesome.
Jenna 24:50 Yeah. I think 2018 is a great year for healthcare and mental healthcare innovation. I read an article with that headline recently. Oh goodness. But yeah.
Jenna 25:07 I run and I go to a support group for my disorder here in San Francisco. We had a newcomer come in, and she was saying, "I feel so ashamed of having this disorder. I won't even go on a date because I'm so ashamed of what I'm living with." And, this woman jumps in and says, "Honey, I think that you have bought into the stigma." And right then and there I was just shocked. Because, when you're living with mental illness, for me, I didn't think that I myself could embody the stigma, because it's yourself. You're the one living with it. How can you be stigmatizing yourself? This woman, she had bought into the shame. I hope that she continues coming to our group. But, it was great to see other people unpack her stigma about her. Yeah.
Beau 26:14 I think more often, I haven't personally interacted with people who were ashamed that they have [inaudible 00:26:21], this disorder, whatever it was that they were struggling with. But, I have seen people struggle with treatment, feeling like they shouldn't have to take medication, or feeling like they shouldn't have to go to therapy. That they should be able to get through this on their own without those things.
Beau 26:38 I think that was one of the big things that I took away from the first few times I really listened to some of these stories told by people at conferences or whatever, is that these are things that are hard to deal with. They aren't things that you just wish away for the most part. Sometimes you do need to take medications. Sometimes you do need counseling. Sometimes you do need to do something about it. And, I think for me, that's one of the harder things about this, is realizing that there're people out there who aren't getting the help. Because, they don't think they should need it, or feel like they don't deserve it, or they aren't trying hard enough. And, I think that's a bit of a bummer.
Beau 27:20 I wish that, if anything comes from this, is that people can feel confident in going to get help, or confident in at least trying to do something that's within their control to make their lives better, or at least better understand their lives. Whatever it is that they can do.
Jenna 27:42 Yeah. I totally get it. I was gonna say that, we should treat mental illness just like physical illness. So, if you have diabetes you have to take medication, just like if you have depression or anxiety or OCD or whatever, then you're gonna take your medication.
Jenna 28:01 I remember a couple of years ago I had a major health crises, and I was so upset that I had to get treatment at all. And, it was a mental illness crises, right? Not a mental illness crises. It was a physical crises that I couldn't control. It just happened to me. And, I was just so upset and so mad that I had to be going to the doctor three times a week. "This is ridiculous." And so, I totally get it from a mental illness perspective, of how people can react that way, because it just sucks. But, yeah.
Beau 28:37 I had back surgery 10 years ago maybe. Maybe a little longer. I was completely immobilized for at least a couple of months. And, when it started to get to the point where I could actually go out, I needed assistance. A lot of it. And, it was really easy to think, "I'm just gonna stay home until I'm completely better. I'm not gonna go out until I can do this on my own." I had to fight through that.
Beau 29:10 So, I struggled with that both on mental things as well as physical things, where it's really easy to just say, "I'll just get through it. I'll be done with it in a month, and then I'll just go out." But, you can't really put your life on hold very easily for months at a time. I mean, a lot of it isn't your fault. It just is what it is.
Beau 29:37 So, you have two conferences coming up. Do you have anything else ...
Jenna 29:41 Oh, three.
Beau 29:42 Oh yeah. You have three conferences coming up. So, you've got a busy summer, or really Fall, depending on when that other conference is that you haven't read yet.
Jenna 29:51 Oh, yeah.
Beau 29:54 [inaudible 00:29:54]. So, do you have any other things that you're wanting to talk about? Anything else that you want us to focus on?
Jenna 30:03 I'm really really happy that we were both touched to talk about Open Sourcing Mental Illness and Basis. Those are two resources that I personally love as someone with lived mental illness. I'm just really glad that we got to talk about it today.
Beau 30:19 Cool. Well, I'm glad we were able to talk about that as well. Dave, did you have anything else?
Dave 30:25 No, no. It was quite interesting. Like I say, I'm fairly out of touch with the movement of this. I'm far more in tune with it than I would've been two or three years ago. I don't have a lot of questions to ask unfortunately. I'm not as learned as you in this area.
Beau 30:49 Yeah. I actually apologize. I wasn't aware that you were doing things with OSMI. I know that I've talked to Ed about it a bit early on. I sort of see Joe now at a lot of the conferences. But, I guess I haven't paid enough attention to the whole organization to realize that there's more than Joe and Ed. I mean, I knew there was, but without actually actively being involved. It's sometimes hard to realize who those other people are. So, I'm really glad that this came up, because now I have a better idea.
Dave 31:24 How many volunteers do they have?
Jenna 31:25 Oh, I don't know. Dozens?
Dave 31:28 Oh, really? I had no idea. I thought it was a few people at tops.
Jenna 31:35 Yeah. Well, a dozen people at our Slack. How's that?
Dave 31:36 Okay.
Jenna 31:37 Or, maybe just a dozen.
Dave 31:39 Even so, it's still more than I thought.
Beau 31:41 Yeah, definitely. I assumed it was a small group as well. No idea there were a dozen. Yeah, thank you for coming on and sharing that with us. And also, thanks for sharing about the Bay Area PHP scene. I would love to go back there at some point and do more PHP stuff, now that I'm actually into going to conferences and things.
Beau 32:05 Before Symfony Live conference, I'd actually gone to two of the O'Reilly Perl conferences, when they were actually Perl conferences, not open source conferences. So, I had a huge stretch of time between those two things.
Beau 32:22 Are you actually programming PHP a lot now? I don't think you are, right?
Jenna 32:28 Not really. I do a little bug fixing one a month maybe, but not so much.
Beau 32:36 Yeah. You're doing Python otherwise, right?
Jenna 32:41 Yes.
Beau 32:42 Is there a Python community [crosstalk 00:32:44] ...
Jenna 32:45 So, I've been coding in Python for about a year now, and I haven't been in touch with the community here. I find it very difficult to find Python specific meetups. A lot of the meetups are data science Python specific, or Django specific. So, related but not necessarily applicable.
Beau 33:08 Yeah, okay. That makes sense. Sounds like Dave might have a similar ecosystem as PHP. There's a Symfony conference, there's a Symfony meetup to go to there. But, no PHP meetups. I get the feeling that, from my experience in the Bay Area a while ago, that things are more fractured. Specific things like framework specific, rather than language specific things.
Jenna 33:35 Yeah. We have an HTML5 meetup. Just HTML5.
Dave 33:42 Well, maybe because there's so many people in the [inaudible 00:33:45] area. We wouldn't have enough people in my city to do a PHP meetup, but we would have enough people to do a generic meetup. Whereas, in the Bay Area, you could have like you said you could. You can have an HTML5 meetup.
Beau 33:59 Yeah. Awesome. Alright. Well, thank you for joining. [inaudible 00:33:59] running in at some point. And, good luck with your conferences this year.
Jenna 33:59 Thank you.
Dave 33:59 Thanks for coming on Jenna.
Jenna 34:01 Thank you. Good to be here.
Beau 34:05 We'll call this one a wrap.
Speaker 4 34:34 You've been listening to That Podcast with Beau and Dave. You can find Beau on Twitter and Google Plus at Beau Simensen, and Dave on Twitter at Dave Development. You can subscribe to this podcast or review it on iTunes. If you'd like to review us, but don't feel like we've earned five stars, email us so that we can talk about your issues. You can also subscribe to this podcast with RSS from out website, thatpodcast.io. From our website, you can also sign up for our newsletter to get super-secret extra content from Beau and Dave, sent directly to your inbox.
Speaker 4 35:01 Like the music? You can thank Grillo for allowing us to sample the track, Dust Kingdom for our intro and outro. You can find Dust Kingdom and other tracks by Grillo at grillo.bandcamp.com. Spelled, G-R-I-L-L-O.