Dave 00:16 Hi, and welcome to another episode of That Podcast. I'm Dave.

Beau 00:19 And I'm Beau.

Dave 00:20 And we have a special guest with us again, there, we didn't have one last week but Oliver Davies, welcome.

Oliver 00:27 Hi guys, thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to it.

Beau 00:32 I think we were talking recently and it sounded like you just started a new job.

Oliver 00:35 That's right, yeah. Last week I started a new role as a senior software engineer at Inviqa which is quite interesting. Still staying within the Drupal space primarily which is where I've been working most of the time. The chance to do some other things, I do some Symfony work as well, will be quite interesting.

Beau 00:57 I think that Inviqa has been, at least in the past, they were helping with the SymfonyLive UK events I think, weren't they?

Dave 01:09 Yes, that's right. They were almost like Sensio Labs' arm in the UK for a while weren't they? There was some sort of affiliation there, I don't know what the details were.

Oliver 01:20 Yeah, I believe Sensio Labs UK was one of the companies that then got bought into Inviqa Group along with Session Digital, iKOS, and a few others. I know a little bit of that era, obviously before my time, but when they were there.

Dave 01:36 Cool. And they used to be iBuildings UK as well before they were Inviqa if anyone's familiar with that name from some time ago.

Beau 01:46 Yeah, I think I'd heard that at one point too and I was a little surprised. I only know them from, they're in the Netherlands right?

Dave 01:55 Netherlands, yeah, that's right.

Beau 01:56 Yeah.

Dave 01:57 There was a UK arm to the company as it were but I think it was independently owned if that makes sense. There was a partnership there, if you like, I guess.

Beau 02:08 Cool. So you've been doing a lot of stuff in the Drupal space. Can you share how Drupal's doing these days? I think I went to my first DrupalCon two years ago I think so I don't really know much about Drupal or the community and whatnot.

Oliver 02:24 Okay. I've been doing Drupal for I think it's like 10 years at this point. I think I started off as a hobbyist developer when I was still fixing PCs for a living. I think that was about 2007 and then I got my first full time web developer role about 2008, which was working client side on a Drupal project. So I've gone through quite a few major versions of Drupal.

Oliver 02:50 I think some of the change that we've had has been really interesting. Drupal 8 was released a couple of years ago at this point and there were some quite big changes there. With previous versions we, as in the community, had written all of the Drupal code ourselves whereas Drupal 8 was quite different in that we were pulling in a lot of third party dependencies so a lot of Symfony components. I guess primarily Symfony components, there's some Doctrine, some Symfony CMF routing, some Zend frameworks in there as well, so it's a real sort of mixture of third party code in addition to the Drupal stuff, which is really interesting.

Oliver 03:25 I still have some Symfony stuff on my own time as well and some of my side projects. I've been doing Symfony framework or putting in some components, so it's really nice not to have that big mental jump between day job and side projects because they're all sort of all fundamentally the same now. I rewrote something on Symfony 4 recently and it's just a Drupal module essentially now, in terms of how it's structured. There's slight differences, but the concepts are the same.

Dave 04:01 I'm quite interested in how the adoption's gone because I haven't followed it very much, but when Drupal took the decision to adopt Symfony, I wasn't overly active, but I was active enough in the Symfony community to know what was going on and I understand there was a little bit of pushback from some people and a reasonable chunk of Drupal users were planning to stick on Drupal 7 and possibly hard fork or whatever. How has that turned out a few years down the line?

Oliver 04:34 I think you're right. There still is some, probably it's like a small section of the community or at least a section of the community, that are a little bit reluctant to take on some of these new things. I'd say Composer maybe being one that's still a big movement towards adopting Composer. Core is using Composer a lot for matching all those dependencies that I said but, for more of a site builder perspective, if you want them to add many modules to your project normally you'd either download a tarball of that or you download it through the Drush shell utility. Drupal 8 has been using or there's a push with it to use more Composer to manage your whole project, so there's some people who go, "Ah, that's another thing to use or to learn", and it's maybe raising the barrier to entry, arguably.

Oliver 05:24 There's still some of that there I think. There was a fork of late Drupal 7 where they were adding some of these Drupal 8 features into it. It's called Backdrop. It's still going. I don't know how much traction it has; it's still a thing. It was quite interesting at the time. I did follow that briefly and then actually went to work for the Drupal Association so didn't really follow it after that point. But I still see Drupal counting things, people writing maybe a Backdrop track or contributions, staying on Backdrop stuff.

Oliver 05:58 Yeah, I was all in for the Symfony side and for the Twig side and everything because that's what I've been, as I said, nice to not have to make that big jump between day job stuff and evening stuff.

Dave 06:10 Yeah, it sounds like you probably had reasonable adoption or better adoption than some thought would happen because it seemed like it was almost 50/50 when I was-

Oliver 06:23 Yeah, I think the interesting thing then is as well we've been pulling a lot of these third party components but we're also contributing to a back for a lot of them like Symfony CMF routing, I think was a collaboration between Drupal and Symfony CMF team and some parts of the [inaudible 00:06:41] re-fix changes in that and push those upstream. So it's been like a real collaboration between multiple treaties, not just old takings, we're giving back as well.

Dave 06:52 Yeah I would expect nothing less from the Drupal community of from what I've experienced of them, anyway.

Oliver 07:01 Yeah it's been interesting to see like that's sort of extended to more than just a code level as well, so that'd be adopted, essentially the Symfony's branching release model, essentially for Drupal 8. So, we've been doing schematic versioning for core and then six month minor releases for new features, just being really interesting, and then past versions so that every six months we have a new version of Drupal 8 with new features.

Oliver 07:24 Because we didn't have thatDrupal 7 at all, so I think core is really static so like new things like we have this media and layer builder and stuff, have gone into Drupal 7, which is really interesting. And then Drupal 9 is going to be sort of Drupal 8 minus the deprecations. So it's very much sort of Symfony 2 to 3 or 3 to 4, rather than a grander rebuild like it's been for previous versions, you need to rebuild everything.

Oliver 07:50 It's been good to see the adoption happening on a community, non-technical level as well as distributor coded option.

Beau 07:58 I think I heard that before, that each major version of Drupal was essentially a ground up rewrite. Was that true for every single version?

Oliver 08:06 Yeah, so there were some that were small and others... I think 5 to 6 was pretty small. 6 to 7 was some differences in the database layer. But I picked up a Drupal 7 project, my first one for the agency I worked for at the time, I managed to put that together based on what I knew from Drupal 6, I just had to make some small changes. Like, now this thing turns back into gray now, rather than something else.

Oliver 08:33 Whereas 7 to 8 was obviously a big change, because of all the Symfony and introduction of YAML, the configuration, and all these other things. But some parts are still quite Drupal 7-ey. Still altering building forms, the [inaudible 00:08:50] are very similar. So I'm looking forward to moving 8 to 9 quite seamlessly.

Oliver 08:56 This tool's being built in the community right now it serves a check for Drupal 9 compatibility. Which is really good for me, to have a building project, but also as a module and theme maintainer, I can know that my thing's going to be compatible with Drupal 9, quite easy.

Beau 09:14 Nice. How about Symfony CMF? That's something I haven't looked at in many, many years. Drupal's using the router, correct? The Symfony CMF router?

Oliver 09:25 Yeah. I was looking at the json file, earlier on, just to make sure I was right with that. Yeah, it's the Symfony CMF routing-

Beau 09:33 So it's the Content Management Framework, for the people that don't know the CMF acronym.

Oliver 09:42 Yeah, I think that was very much a collaboration between the two communities.

Beau 09:48 So did you know much about the Symfony CMF community, like is that still a very active project?

Oliver 09:53 I don't know, I've not looked into it much, actually. I was just asking somebody quite recently, actually, how that came about.

Oliver 10:02 Yeah, I'm not sure really [inaudible 00:10:06] community's on CMF, I haven't really looked into it.

Beau 10:10 At one point, I was looking at it for potentially replacing the flat-file backend for Sculpin, with potentially integrating with Symfony CMF. That was way back in the day, probably five or six years ago. I really don't know where it's been lately and I knew that Drupal was using some parts of it, mainly the router. I didn't know if that whole ecosystem was growing or anything like that.

Beau 10:37 Have you heard anything about the CMF project lately, Dave?

Dave 10:44 No, so I know Lukas and his company, what company is that? In Switzerland?

Beau 10:54 Liip.

Dave 10:55 Yeah, Liip. I know they were quite big with it, weren't they? And I know there's at least one fairly big framework that's integrated with it. It might be one of the e-commerce ones.

Beau 11:08 Like Sylias, or something like that?

Dave 11:09 Sylias, yeah, I'm sure Sylias integrated with CMF to add some content-management to the product. I've done no e-commerce in my entire life, so I know nothing about it.

Dave 11:26 Other than that, I've not really heard a lot, so I don't know.

Beau 11:29 Okay.

Oliver 11:30 I'm trying to think if I've seen it on like Symfony [inaudible 00:11:36] or anything. I don't think I have. I know I've seen Drupal 8 stuff that they [crosstalk 00:11:38]

Beau 11:38 Yeah, [crosstalk 00:11:38], I was looking at the, I think it was the Doctrine ODM, is that what it was? PHPCR-ODM, very low-level stuff at the time, there wasn't a full CMS in front of it, that I had seen. So I guess Drupal would probably count, at least partially, as that.

Beau 11:59 Anyway, we don't have to talk about it a whole lot if none of us really know where it is. But you mentioned that as the router and I was like, "I haven't heard about that project in like three years, so..." Yeah.

Beau 12:13 Probably my biggest work with Drupal, probably has to do with Sculpin. One of the earliest adopters was Drupal people. They came to Sculpin because it was a great way to start working with Twig without actually having to use a full Symfony application. So that was kind of cool. It sounds like the community's full-on adopted Twig and everyone's happy with it, right? Or is there still complications with Twig in Drupal-land?

Oliver 12:45 I did a talk at Drupal Camp North, up in Sunderland, it's just [inaudible 00:12:50] onto my site. The talk was a test run that Twig was coming. So I was one of those people [crosstalk 00:12:58] for that reason, it really matches the set-up, really quickly. Both [inaudible 00:13:04] Twig [inaudible 00:13:06] Drupal too, the content types, taxonomies, it's almost sort of a mini Drupal, which is cool.

Oliver 13:14 So Drupal 8 has been using Twig as its primary templating since quite early on, actually I think it was SensioLabs UK [inaudible 00:13:22] who were one of those main drivers to getting Twig into Drupal 8 [inaudible 00:13:29]. I'm pretty sure [inaudible 00:13:31] over and the guys from Sensio UK built the SensioLabs UK site on Drupal 8 when it was still in development phase. Like chasing [inaudible 00:13:41] every night and see what sort of broke.

Oliver 13:45 It's been there as the primary thing for template now. I think the PHP template [inaudible 00:13:51] supported but I don't think it's really used that much. I think there's also a different project to put Twig into, to add it on to Drupal 7. Because again, the engines are topical, not that they really... I feel like I've seen it done on a project, but I remember looking at using, I was looking at a project, maybe 12, 18 months ago, where I was like, "this is really a Drupal 7 project." Because they have commerce and it needs x and y modules, it's [inaudible 00:14:17] there at the time. And I sort of looked and said, "how can we build this in Drupal 7 now in a way that will make moving to Drupal 8 easier?" Looked at Twig [inaudible 00:14:29].

Oliver 14:30 I think that there's an addition to pulling Twig 2 into Drupal 8 [inaudible 00:14:35]. So I think it's an optional toggle that we can put the newer version of Twig, which would be pretty awesome.

Beau 14:43 Nice. Has anybody tried to do any other exotic templating languages like Blade or anything with Drupal?

Oliver 14:50 Not that I'm aware of.

Beau 14:52 Okay.

Oliver 14:52 I think it's mainly PHP template was the original one that was in 6 and 7, which have had a bit of a crash back in [inaudible 00:15:00]. I've been doing a talk [inaudible 00:15:02] so getting back into WordPress templating, so getting lots of PHP tags inside [inaudible 00:15:09] which I haven't had to do for a little while. I think that's been the main sort of [inaudible 00:15:15] Drupal 6, 7, and then 8 went all to Twig. I don't know, it'd be pretty interesting to try it with Blade. I pull in collections a lot through Tighten's library and collections [inaudible 00:15:31] for types of custom modules but I've not done anything on the [inaudible 00:15:36]. I think it's pretty much aligned with Twig or [inaudible 00:15:39].

Oliver 15:40 A lot of people want to do a sort of React view front ends and then using Drupal 8 with an API, essentially. And routing is separate [inaudible 00:15:49] maybe there's been more energy going into that than there have been to introducing some Blade or something else.

Dave 15:57 I honestly can't ever see myself looking past Twig. It does everything, pretty much, that I want it to do, ever. It's nice because they use the templating language I use, it's jinja, for, usually, when I'm writing Ansible stuff, so it's kind of like the fact that they're both almost identical, I can't really ever see myself using anything else. Even Blade, or whatever they are, whatever the others are, I don't know what they are now...

Oliver 16:31 Yeah, I'm the same. I write quite a lot of [inaudible 00:16:32], I've done some work with Jekyll as well and they're pretty much the same. One of my couple of jobs the other week did something with Python and that was using, kind of a negative framework. I was using Digi 2, again that's pretty much exactly the same, Jango framework, so again, that was quite a [inaudible 00:16:53] then, you look at Drupal 8 and go, these two are basically the same. So, the front end is not so much a difference into what they would write into Drupal versus Jango, which was pretty cool.

Beau 17:04 I recently had to work on some WordPress things and some of the newer WordPress starter packages that are hyper-modern, like Composer installs and all of that, one of them had a theme package that all was based on Blade. So no more PHP stuff. I know that Blade seems to be something that obviously Laravel people are super excited about, so if you get Laravel people who have to all of a sudden work on a WordPress project, things like that's great for them.

Oliver 17:39 Yeah.

Beau 17:39 That's why I threw Blade out there because it seems to be infecting a lot of places.

Oliver 17:43 Yeah, essentially it's seeming like I want [inaudible 00:17:46] couple of years ago and did a talk there for Drupal and saw all the new stuff about Drupal 8 and Symfony, et cetera, and then somebody else got up to share, he did a talk about WordPress and that was sort of similar.

Oliver 18:01 It's like you use a composer for doing installs and that's a separate project, it's like a mirror that's composer compatible and everything. And it's interesting to see a lot of the comparisons, because this system is like an unofficial Drupal composer template for [inaudible 00:18:17] projects. It's interesting to see that sort of parallel coming across between those two communities.

Oliver 18:26 I'm looking forward to that. I'm going to, it's a [inaudible 00:18:26] camp in Bristol this weekend, I'm going to learn some fun WordPress stuff and all that.

Beau 18:32 Yeah, I recently went to roots.io To look at their whole ecosystem and they have, I can't remember the name of, but they have one of their secret projects that if you become one of their Patreon people, they give you access to it. So, I need to give that a try. They were my first Patreon targets. Would that make me a patron? Or are they the patron?

Dave 18:58 You would be a patron.

Beau 19:07 So what would that make them?

Dave 19:09 Don't know. [crosstalk 00:19:10]

Beau 19:10 So I'm a patron for the roots project. First one. I think, Dave, you are. Are you, Oliver?

Dave 19:20 Am I what?

Beau 19:22 You've used Patreon, right?

Dave 19:23 Yes, yes. Yeah, a couple of projects. I gave to PHP Unit for a while and I still give to, is it Remi who makes the packages for Debian and Ubuntu too?

Beau 19:40 Yeah, I think so.

Oliver 19:41 Is it Remi?

Beau 19:42 It sounds familiar to me.

Dave 19:44 It might not be. But, I think you all know the one and Dan Carlins, Hardcore History, best podcast ever, he asks for a book a show. That's his thing, they ask for a book per show. So, I think that's what I give him, it may be more, I don't know, but it's worth more.

Beau 20:05 Nice. It seems like a cool way to go. I know just recently, one of our past guests, Frank de Jonge, I think I have it right, I think he just pulled his Patreon down. And I've seen a couple of other people do that as well because they weren't successful or weren't super useful. So it's interesting to see how some people seem to be successful with those sorts of things and other people not and I haven't really figured out when is good.

Beau 20:38 How do you know if a project is going to be successful if you ask for donations? Does it have to do with the people involved? The project? The actual value to people? It's really hard to tell.

Oliver 20:47 It's like I see on Twitter, was it this week, the the Doctrine maintainers they were looking to make donations [crosstalk 00:21:00] the conversation was then going like then why aren't people, these corporates, why aren't they sort of sponsoring rather than people having to donate money. Which I thought was quite an interesting conversation, cause I'm sure a lot of companies rely on that singular package or set of packages. I've seen that conversation come up quite a few times on different formats and things.

Beau 21:20 I sort of feel like people are whatever their ecosystem is like. I sort of feel like the Symfony ecosystem expects everything for free, and I'm being super generalized here, so feel free to disagree. But I feel like, in general, the Symfony ecosystem and the things that it touches want things to be free.

Beau 21:42 Certain other communities, like the Laravel community, for example, are more than happy to pay for stuff. They're happy to pay for Taylor's stuff, they're happy to pay for Laracasts, all of these other things. Where their environment is about making money, as developers, so nobody expects Taylor to give away Forge for free, so people pay for it and it's useful.

Oliver 22:09 Yeah, you say that but I remember seeing quite a few people toggle with when they were released Nova.

Beau 22:11 Right.

Oliver 22:14 And there was quite a bit of pressure on that, I think, people were like, "why isn't it staying for free?"

Beau 22:17 Right.

Oliver 22:19 It's not cheap, it's not that expensive, I don't think either for a license. But I think some people were thinking, "why are we building things that are there to make money, rather than proving framework?" I think that's an interesting [crosstalk 00:22:34]. We don't really have it in Drupal at all. I know Word processor premium, plug-ins, and themes, I don't see it all in Symfony, in the Symfony casts, on the tutorial side of things. It's interesting.

Dave 22:48 Yeah, it's a difficult one for me. Particularly with something like Patreon, or that kind of model where it's contributions and donations, they're so small, you know. If you want big companies to sponsor projects, then those big companies are probably going to want a little bit of influence on what happens.

Dave 23:10 The other thing is, if big companies want something or need something from something like Doctrine or Symfony, chances are they have the resources to put to themselves and it'll happen. Does that make sense?

Dave 23:24 If there's this feature X that we're missing from Doctrine, the company wants it so badly that they pay the Doctrine developers enough to make a difference, so enough to get those Doctrine developers to actually develop the feature, then they probably have the resources themselves to be doing that kind of thing or to be paying somebody themselves to be doing that kind of thing. Without the politics. Does that make sense?

Dave 23:49 So, if I wanted a feature for, we use Doctrine at work, and if I wanted something that badly to be improved in Doctrine or fixed in Doctrine, I'd just find the time and fix it. Rather than trying to find the Doctrine developer and bum them money in hopes that they might work on the thing that I want. Does that make sense?

Oliver 24:10 Yeah, because then you see assholes that recently, I think someone just tweeted a picture and it was some major issue on the repository and it was like, "oh you should be doing this." And it was like four hours later they were saying "oh this [inaudible 00:24:25] is actually dead, use mine instead."

Oliver 24:27 That's not the way open source works. [inaudible 00:24:30] maintenance more on the project and giving them the time to do it, maybe.

Oliver 24:41 I remember this conversation went on it went "maybe you should offer them perks" like so many hours a month on a Skype call or something to that effect to give them some little sweeteners, I guess, to try and do something. I'll have to dig out the thread.

Dave 24:56 I could see that. Taylor does that with Laravel, doesn't he?

Oliver 25:03 I think so yeah.

Dave 25:03 If you want to be the top sponsors, you get office hours and stuff. And I seem to recall, I'm sure, Tighten, one of the top sponsors, Spatie, one of the top sponsors. But they're big companies making a lot of money, but I don't make money because of Doctrine. Doctrine is a tool I use. Whereas Laravel, for them, it's a massive enabler for their- Does that make... It's a bit different. They'll probably tell you that they could churn out four times as much work because of Laravel than they could with something else.

Dave 25:33 That's not really how Doctrine works for me. [crosstalk 00:25:40]

Oliver 25:41 Something I was quite keen to do in my last place, at my last job, was sponsoring Drupal Association, a sponsorship for making that organization. But it's more code-level contributing time back to give people a day with, a couple of us on like a Friday, we all sort of sat down, the development team, like today we're not working on any client work, we're just going to work on some issues. And some of them are stuff that we found on projects or modules that we maintain, outside of work, but from that we were able to [inaudible 00:26:19] quite a few quirks and spills, issues [inaudible 00:26:26] module seven to eight, to work on a few things. Even though we're not giving money, we were able to solve issues and time [inaudible 00:26:37] back into the project.

Dave 26:36 That's how I think these things works because they're things that are valuable to you, or might be valuable to you. Like I say, I use Doctrine and Jonathan said [inaudible 00:26:45] people used to work on Doctrine full-time. I honestly could not think of a single thing, if I said, "our company loves Doctrine, we're super rich, here you go, Jonathan, we'll pay your salary to work on Doctrine full-time," and he says, "great, what do you want me to work on?" I'd be like... I just don't know. Any security [inaudible 00:27:09] get them patched through as quick as you can, that'd be great. Otherwise, it's just something that's there, ticking along, doing what I need.

Oliver 27:19 There would be real instances of this, in Drupal specifically, when we were moving towards Drupal 8, that took about five, five maybe six years from the start of Drupal 8 til it ended up being released. There was a period of time where money was spent to get core developers working together to do codes together.

Oliver 27:40 There were a couple of people who I believe sponsored [inaudible 00:27:43] and probably larger Drupal companies to work on core and get through those 8 blocker issues. Pfizer's got quite a big [inaudible 00:27:57] team [inaudible 00:27:57] work with Pfizer, they pay for some developer time to go and maintain these modules as well. It's more the exception of than the rule.

Beau 28:06 So it sounds like Jonathan Wage is one the market again?

Dave 28:10 Yeah, he's left Open Sky, I don't know anything more than that. Be interesting to see what he does. Very talented.

Oliver 28:22 I've seen three tweets on that, from various people: "Hey, I'm back on the job market." I guess people do it earlier in the year, don't they? After Christmas, they'll say maybe look for something else or whatever. [inaudible 00:28:37].

Dave 28:39 I think quite a lot of people now chop and change in our industry. Which is good, I think. I see so many people particularly in other industries, are sort of afraid of applying for jobs and they just don't even look then. "What if I don't get an interview" and things like that. Whereas I think our industry is a little bit better in terms of people do make an effort to move when they think they should move. Or move when they think it could be more lucrative for them. Stuff like that.

Oliver 29:10 Yeah. A couple of jobs ago, [inaudible 00:29:14] my manager was saying, "I've probably got you for like 3 years, tops, after that you'll probably want to move on to something else." That seems to be sort of the standard for developers or engineers. It's not as quite interesting.

Dave 29:29 Sometimes, for some companies, there's just not a lot you can do. You can make it an amazing atmosphere while you're there, make the work interesting, but people grow and there are just different challenges at different companies, I think. We see it more, we're plugged in to social media, plays a big part in seeing what other people are doing. Open source plays a big part in seeing what other people are doing. It's putting us in touch with like-minded people in our industry from all over the world, so we do get a good view of what other people are doing, which I think isn't always as visible in other industries, certainly.

Oliver 30:13 I guess [inaudible 00:30:14] are sort of like that as well, right? We go [inaudible 00:30:15] or in Bristol, we get 60 or 70 people in a room every month and someone talks about something cool they've been doing or something they've worked on recently. I don't know how much that -

Dave 30:30 Yeah, I don't see that in other industries.

Oliver 30:30 [crosstalk 00:30:30] Car manufacturers get together once a year at a big annual conference or something, again, I'd assume most [inaudible 00:30:39] propriety of what they do and not as keen to share, whereas in ours, we're "yeah, look at this!" Quite willing to shout and tell people about these cool new things we're doing.

Dave 30:49 Yeah, I think so. You do see other things, like when I look in the area it tends to be, there seem to be networking-type meet-ups. They'll be like small business owners and stuff and they'll have a meet-up when it's almost like they're doing similar kind of things but they're not all necessarily in the same line of work. So they're networking to maybe meet people who can be a contact for their work because people use different people from different industries to do whatever they're doing. But I don't see many places that talk share in the same way that we do. Not that we're special about it or anything, I think it's just the way we've learned and the way we've developed.

Oliver 31:34 I know there are people like mentors out there who work with [inaudible 00:31:39] or MD's and that type of thing to do business as mentors or something. I've seen things like that happening, but I don't know whether there's more community around it, it's more of a one-to-one thing. Obviously we have mentoring as well, but we do have the 3,000 Drupal developers together once a year and go to Amsterdam for a conference or something as well.

Dave 32:00 Yeah, cool.

Beau 32:02 Awesome. So I think we're probably pretty close to our time here, did you have anything else you wanted to talk about, Oliver? Or anything else you wanted to mention? Or you, Dave?

Dave 32:10 Yeah, I had something I was going to mention. Oliver, have you seen Avengers: Endgame?

Oliver 32:15 No, not yet. No spoilers.

Dave 32:18 So we can't talk about it. I was just going to bring it up because we haven't mentioned it on the show yet. I assume you've seen it, Beau?

Beau 32:27 Yeah, we saw it.

Dave 32:28 Well maybe we'll talk about it on the next episode when it's just me and you?

Beau 32:32 Okay.

Dave 32:33 How about something else: how about Game of Thrones? Do you both watch Game of Thrones?

Oliver 32:35 A little bit, my wife's into Game of Thrones. She's been binge-watching all the seasons because the new one has been...

Beau 32:44 I'm current as of an hour and a half ago.

Dave 32:47 Well I'm raging about this season.

Beau 32:51 Yeah.

Dave 32:52 I'm so fed up with it. I'm going to keep watching it, I have to, but I really am just coming away from every episode full of rage. I don't think I've been this angry about anything for years. It's really disappointing for me. I always used to tease my brother a bit because when Lost was on, I used to get together with a buddy of mine and my brother and we'd watch every Sunday. And every episode, my brother would kick off and be so angry about it, but he'd be the first one sat down the next week, ready to watch again. I think I'm getting to that stage with Game of Thrones now. If Oliver hasn't seen, I won't spoil it with any details, but that's pretty much my sentiment. You'll be able to track my sentiment over the next couple of episodes, depending on how quickly we get it compiled to Game of Thrones.

Beau 33:49 Did you watch the end of Lost?

Dave 33:51 Did I watch the end?

Beau 33:52 Yes.

Dave 33:52 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Beau 33:54 Okay, so you watched it all the way through?

Dave 33:56 Yeah. Lost was brilliant for me. Obviously, I think everybody was disappointed with the end, really. I actually said this to a group of friends last week, I think, Game of Thrones at the minute is making the Lost ending look amazing. That's how I feel.

Dave 34:22 I'm actually starting to care more about the Game of Thrones books again. I'd kind of forgotten about them. It feels like so long since I've read them, so I was like, I'm not going to dwell on it. But now I'm just thinking, "oh god I hope those books come out" because it's got to be better than this.

Dave 34:39 We'll have to wait and see. I'm not holding my breath about that.

Beau 34:43 I've been seeing a lot of people talking about this season being filled with rage and it'll be good to talk about that sometime.

Dave 34:54 We've got a couple of weeks left, right?

Beau 34:55 Yeah, I think maybe it's two episodes left.

Dave 34:58 Yeah, well let's me and you do a Game of Thrones episode so we can, full-spoiler version warning, episode of Game of Thrones.

Dave 35:10 Right then, so was there anything you wanted to add, Oliver, anything you wanted to talk about?

Oliver 35:17 No, I think, one thing I'm actually looking forward to, I'm looking forward to seeing Tailwind CSS released. That's been a big push right now. I love Tailwind, I use Tailwind a lot, I've got a few projects. I [inaudible 00:35:30] is about Tailwind. A lot of tweaks [inaudible 00:35:38] I've updated this documentation page as a [inaudible 00:35:40] so I'm looking forward to when that comes out.

Beau 35:46 I feel like version one hit Beta 5 and was going to be released tomorrow like two months ago. It seems like it's been a long time.

Dave 35:56 I think it's imminent. I'm holding off with out sort of full-blown adoption until 1.0 comes out. It's nice, actually, watching, so we have a style dossier css file which contains nearly all of our custom css and those have been slowly migrating a bit of Tailwind, I've been watching the file size go down and it's lovely. I think we're about 75 percent the size that it was when we started. And that's including add-in utility, so I haven't actually included Tailwind completely yet. What I do is copy and paste bits of Tailwind that I want to use right now into our stylesheet, if that makes sense, sort of partway adoption.

Oliver 36:45 Yeah, I've done that on a couple of projects, I just need these four utilities, so I'm just going to copy and paste and put them in the top of the file and that's fine.

Dave 36:52 I've actually copied and paste quite a lot now. It's almost probably gets to the point where it's not worth doing that anymore, but still it's been a good, nice sort of steady way to adopt it.

Beau 37:03 I upgraded beausimonson.com from early Tailwind to whatever Beta was like a month ago and the migration was actually really smooth and the new configuration file allowed me to really easily add the old names in a couple of places so I didn't have to go in and change every single place where I spelled gray differently.

Dave 37:30 They've switched to the US version, haven't they? So I'm going to have that all over. I'm going to really struggle with that going forward.

Oliver 37:42 Yeah, I've considered writing a plug-in for it [crosstalk 00:37:47]. I'm thinking about whether I should write a Tailwind UK plug-in.

Beau 37:50 Would you even change how colors are spelled then?

Oliver 37:52 Yeah.

Beau 37:53 In the config?

Oliver 37:54 Yeah, maybe. I think that was someone's response on Twitter, to the change, it was like "oh don't tell me they're spelling it without the 'u' either in colors." Quite sarcastically. I've been using Tailwind for quite a while, since the quite early versions and I was watching one of the early rebuilds that Adam did, I think it's like laravel.io or something. Even before that, I think, when he did the code tail videos, is that right? When it first introduced this way of [inaudible 00:38:29] so it's interesting to see how much it's improved, even since then. So hopefully I think it's all just docs being updated now before it gets actually released. Looking forward to that. [inaudible 00:38:45]

Beau 38:45 Well thank you for joining us today, Oliver.

Dave 38:47 Yeah, thank you Oliver.

Oliver 38:51 It was great to be on, thanks [inaudible 00:38:51].

Beau 38:53 Sounds good, let's call this one a wrap.